Carlisle Utd chief executive on transfers, stadium and finances

TRANSFER WINDOW

Why wasn't more business done before or on deadline day?

The approach of Keith [Curle] is an approach the club supports, which is not to leave everything to the last minute, to plan ahead, and to try and get as many of your targets in as you can.

Inevitably, as you get to the point where the deadline approaches, there is pressure from all quarters to do more. Depending on if you've had a few injuries, or how you are performing, there's added pressure to fix gaps.

The track record here under Keith is that the deals have been done [earlier], and while the manager has always looked to get players in, if they haven't been around, that's life.

The history is that we've done few deals on deadline day. I'm pretty comfortable with that. On deadline day itself, we were looking at one or two players, one of them looked like it could happen and then that deal went away for non-football reasons.

Sometimes players decide that they're going to stay at their club for other reasons. When that happens right at the end you don't get much time to explore other things.

So the funds that were available - do they get ringfenced for January?

One thing we talked about in the run-up to the end of the window was the need to be able to take opportunities in the transfer market in January.

More so than last year?

Keith's view, and we support it - one I'm strongly wedded to - is that you need to have enough contingency to deal with uncertain events, whether that's wanting to push on, or shoring things up.

Football's fast-moving, anything can happen, and you need to have that comfort and cushion financially to be able to do it.

Sometimes managers will ask, 'If [we] don't spend it now, is it going to be there later? So we had better to spend it now...' From a club point of view we've got to take a longer-term view and we're pleased that Keith shares that.

We've had some football fortune from the sale of Kyle Dempsey and Brad Potts that was unbudgeted - that's available, then we get exceptional items that we have to deal with like repairing the stadium roof, which is going to take some out of that pot. Then the football fortune can grow again with progress in the likes of the FA Cup and the Checkatrade Trophy.

It's all money into the pot. We've made it clear to Keith what he had available towards the end of the window, that hasn't gone away, and essentially it's there waiting to be utilised in whatever happens.

Keith has said that the club hasn't been "proactive" enough in previous January windows...

I might dispute that. Last year we did two permanent deals in January. We signed Gary Liddle and John O'Sullivan on permanent deals. We lost Charlie Wyke and that had to be a like-for-like replacement with a loan player [Jamie Proctor], and on top of that we got George Waring in as another loan player.

It wasn't that we were inactive and didn't have funds - we did. Like anything, you can line all your deals up, but if when push comes to shove you can't get the players in for whatever reason, you can't get them in.

Last January Keith pushed hard to get Hallam Hope to join us, either as a loan with a view, or a permanent, and that would have been on top of the deals that were actually done.

The club's had the wherewithal, and has done some business, and would have done more if it could. It all depends on who's available. But we're well placed with the football fortune that we've had so far and the fact it hasn't all gone in this window.

Is there any more money to come from the Potts and Dempsey moves in the short-term?

In terms of Potts and Dempsey for this season, up to June 2018, there'll be no more money in those deals. The remainder of those deals will come after that. That will be football fortune into 2018/19.

Obviously we beat Morecambe in the Checkatrade, so that's unbudgeted and goes in the pot. We've two more Checkatrade games, so that's money that can go into the pot, then the FA Cup.

The football budget moves throughout the season and you hope it increases. Whenever it's increased, we've done our best to ensure that every single penny can go back into the football. Occasionally not all of it can - with the stand roof repairs an example.

The club's had criticism in the past for not spending money in other areas. We've got to get the balance right. Maybe in the past we've got the balance too skewed towards everything going on the football and that's meant that certain things around the stadium have gone onto the backburner, and we need to address that.

It's all about balance. But, in the end, it's winning football matches that counts.

How close are the club to its wage cap?

We're quite near the top, but we've got the headroom because we didn't go with it all towards the end of August, and it's got a bit more favourable because we've got some more money from the Checkatrade.

We're near the limit, we're always going to be near the limit, but we're comfortable with it.

What is United's position on the prospect of bringing the transfer window forward for EFL clubs?

As we sit here now, the debate hasn't been had within the EFL and certainly not at League Two level. We're going to the meeting on September 21 to hear what the rationale for it is.

Certainly, from my personal point of view, I see it as no-one knows what's going to happen with this. A shorter timeframe to do windows will create more pressure to do deals early. It will create more panic at the end, and that can only be inflationary for wages.

For deals to be done at the start, players and agents are going to demand "can't turn down" offers which is going to raise the wages, and at the end, for those clubs who are looking at a shorter ticking clock and seeing they haven't got as much time to do things, I think that potential uncertainty, worry, panic in the worst extremes will create a climate where people overspend.

That's my personal view. But there will be a discussion on the 21st.

STADIUM

Is the EWM Stand roof repair job now in the diary?

The contractors have been picked, the job's in the diary and all the fine-tuning as to what's going to happen is just being dealt with. It will just run its course.

Is £30,000 still the expected cost?

That's for that particular section - that's the indicative contract cost, roughly.

In layman's terms, what work will take place?

In simple terms, in that section of the stand, some of the fixings have corroded away. Where they've corroded away, they've left holes in the stand roof, that leads to water getting in, and that then further degrades the roof and makes the holes bigger. So over time you're getting into a cycle where the condition of the roof gets worse and worse.

So what will happen is the roof sheeting will be taken off and replaced, the roof supports that have been corroded away will also get replaced. There are some unaffected areas which are quite able to keep in use, but 95 per cent of the roof will be replaced.

Has there been any danger, or health and safety risk, to fans who were sitting in that stand prior to it being closed [at the start of this season]?

We have an annual safety assessment by the safety advisory group, and there are specialist reports prepared every year. They give advice as to what work needs done across the whole ground. This year they said we needed to get the work done and act now, to avoid being in a position where it starts to affect safety.

Are you confident people haven't been at any sort of risk?

To the extent that we can be. The health and safety of the fans is utmost, which is why we're getting the work done, and the specialist reports are undertaken every year. We could have pushed back and asked if it was really necessary but we said we'll act now.

No doubt there'll be other works on the same basis that will follow around the stadium, aspects of which are aged, and this is an ongoing problem.

It has been suggested that there is a potential asbestos problem in the roof that is to be repaired, and potentially in other stands too, given the ground's age. Is that something you can confirm?

The sheets are made of asbestos, and the risk comes if the asbestos becomes dispersed. Obviously we can't do anything that puts any fans at risk so part of this is taking steps to get rid of the roof before the dispersal of that. We've got a structural report, and haven't seen any evidence that there's been dispersal.

So there hasn't been risk to the public from asbestos?

Not as far as I'm aware, no. This work will address the issue in that area and, if it looks like we've got issues in other areas, we'll address those. The stand roofs we've got, you see them all over. It's pretty standard construction, but they get old, and when they get old, if you have problems, you've got to address them.

You have said the stadium was "increasingly expensive to maintain" - how can the club cope with that growing cost, whilst also balancing it with things like the playing budget?

It is clearly an increasing problem, because the age of the stadium means there are aspects of it that are becoming life-expired. Over time, the more life-expired it is, the higher the cost goes. The problem isn't going to go away. Unless we grow the club's income, spending in other areas would have to be curtailed to pay for it.

In the past, when you get football fortune, you could use that and build a sinking fund. You can continue to do that, and we probably could. But at some point it becomes uneconomic to operate on that kind of basis.

I think we're some years off that, but that eventually comes. It's been a long-standing issue, the nature of the stadium, and that will come to the fore again as this problem grows.

Does the club have a current bigger picture regarding the stadium - any new vision or plan?

The issue of the stadium was identified some years ago. Steps were taken to try and address that, firstly with the [Project Blue Yonder plans at] Kingmoor and then the Viaduct. They didn't come to fruition but the circumstances that led the club to form the view to look at those remain and are becoming even more focused.

In that respect the vision is still there - it's how you do it. That's the challenge that we face. At League One and Two levels, it's increasingly difficult to develop stadia. The costs go up all the time and the willingness of people to fund those costs go down all the time, because football at this level is not seen as a good risk to support.

Institutionally it's very difficult to access the ground development funds for professional clubs that have been available in the past. They're much more focused on grassroots level and maybe rightly so given the wealth the football game has, but it's still polarised; there's not much of it at our level.

We then get back to how you fund that kind of move. My personal view is the nature of community clubs in provincial cities call for a community-based approach to stadiums, and it's not just about football. In the past the club's had attempts to do that, and it failed. For me, that's got to be the focus of where we look.

Has the club sought those discussions with the council in the recent past?

We've made recent contact with the council to start that process. It's very early days, and we haven't sat down and talked about it, but we're going to have to, because we're on a floodplain. We could flood at any time, and whilst the ability for the club to survive a flood is far, far improved, as evidenced by us working a floor higher now, that risk is always there, and it casts a shadow over the development of this stadium.

As we've seen increasingly, the benefit of a football club to a town, and what it can do for a town and city when it's working well, goes far beyond a Saturday and the fans who come in. It has good ripple effects through the entire community

Do you think the council will be keen to work with the club on this?

I've no idea.

I only ask because, when the Kingmoor idea was struggling to get going, you could sense some tension in some of the public comments from both sides.

Times change.

But the regime here hasn't changed much. Can the parties work together?

I don't know, being brutally honest. But we've got to start having those conversations.

FINANCES

Has there been any discernible progress in the relationship with Edinburgh Woollen Mill since we last spoke earlier in the summer?

There's been no significant change. It's just carried on as it has since the start, in March. So no material change - we're quite happy with how that's going and I think they're quite happy with how that's progressing.

Has the club been drawing heavily on the loan facility since the end of last season?

Funds were made available to us early on, and we drew some of that down in line with the normal trading cycle of the business. We haven't had the need to utilise any of the facility in the last couple of months or so, and wouldn't envisage that we'd need to draw down on it for another couple of months. Then we'll look at where we are in late Autumn.

Is there a certain limit to this facility that you will hit, and also is there any point when you will repay any of it?

I can't go into the details, but it is very much a commercial arrangement. As we stand, we've got to agree when and how much we draw down, and when and how much it gets repaid, as you would do with any kind of agreement of this nature. But it's very much a commercial relationship.

But is there a limit to it?

Of course there's a mark, as you'd expect. There's no blank cheque.

Could we hit that mark in the near future? And then what?

We'd always discuss where the long-term level goes. But as we sit here now, we're not envisaging hitting the mark any time soon.

Has any been repaid and has there been any request or demand to repay any?

No.

Has Andrew Jenkins had to, or volunteered to, put any more money in since this arrangement began?

There's been speculation that has been described as 'Andrew has turned the tap off', or 'Andrew doesn't support the club any more'. All of that's nonsense. Andrew is always there supporting the club. During the course of the year he put money in to support the purchase of Gary Liddle, and in the early part of the year he put cash in before we reached the arrangement with EWM, whilst we were in other investment discussions. If he was called upon, he would have done, but there's been no need to.

Have EWM given any indication about seeking any deeper influence at the club; that it's something they would like?

We've had no new discussions on that. The position is unchanged from before.

Many people have wondered whether the loan facility is going to be the precursor to investment and ownership change. So that is no further on?

There's nothing new to add, but the relationship is continuing and we're happy with it - and they appear the same.

You said, when this arrangement became public, that the club weren't actively looking for further investment. Should the club not be proactively looking, if this is purely a backstop, and if it isn't going to develop into investment that could drive the club forward?

There's a difference between proactively looking for investment and the situation that we're in. We've got a commercial partner that, if they choose to take that relationship further, would satisfy the criteria that we would have. But as we sit here now, the view the board has taken is that we need to give that every opportunity to see if it would come to fruition. By us proactively looking for other alternatives, whilst being supported by EWM in this relationship, we don't think that would be the right thing to do.

Would the club still welcome approaches, even if you weren't knocking on doors yourself?

If someone makes an approach, you're always going to talk to them about it. But that's different from going and looking.

How long do you give the EWM situation to come to fruition in the way you would ideally like?

I think you've got to have that in your mind, which we do, but we need to be give this time to see where it can go. This arrangement's been going since March, so that's six months, which I think is far too early to say where it's going. I would be premature to draw any conclusions. So we have to do all we can to support the relationship and to build on it. I'm sure EWM are looking to see how the club's doing, and will be forming its view on what's happening at the club. At the time it when further discussions are needed that is when we'll have them.

The club recently changed its accountants - why?

We did change the accountants. One of the things that I'm trying to do is look at all aspects of the club and see where we can get fresh ideas and do things differently. That's just part of that. There's nothing connected with [EWM].

Was the club dissatisfied with its previous accountants?

Not particularly - we just felt it was time for a change.

But there has to be a reason for the change.

I think we felt we needed a new pair of eyes on our accounting function and finance, and to get a different perspective, and to have new people to come in and work with. That's the reason. You want someone to give you a fresh view.

What are you hoping that fresh view will see that the previous accountants couldn't or didn't?

The club's moved on a little bit in recent times. We've got discussions over the share structure to conclude. That might involve restructuring of debt. Then we've got this arrangement with EWM which may or may not lead to anything. There are different things on the horizon. So we need to make sure as and when those things arise, we've got the advice and support we need for those particular circumstances.

You mention the share structure - is something specific on the table there?

This is nothing new and hasn't gone away. It's been long since accepted, and I've said this before in all discussions with parties around the club, that we have a level of debt on the balance sheet and there's a need to deal with that debt for any investment to happen.

We've had debt by Fred Story which has been kindly written off. Andrew's got a significant amount of debt which we need to address - it can't keep on growing. Andrew has made it clear that he's not going to put the club in a difficult position by saying 'give me my money back', but for someone to come into the business and invest, we've got to deal with that.

All the people who've looked at coming into the club, they've all had this on their agenda. It's just a matter of seeing that process through.

Is there a suggestion of how Andrew's debt might be dealt with - written off, converted to shares for example?

All the discussion we've had before is that some of that debt would get converted to equity, but then that equity eventually goes to a new owner. So it doesn't impact anything.

We've got to have discussions with CUOSC and we're really pleased the relationships we have with them are good enough that we can start to have those kind of conversations.

When could that come to a head?

Discussions are under way, and we've got some ideas, and we'd hope we could have something that can be reflected in the accounts, so that when the accounts are published, everyone can see we've sorted another issue out.

So come the next accounts, the club's debt having been reduced is the aim?

That's the sort of thing we need to do. It's important. It's been long since identified and we've got to get on with it. We're now in a far better position to do that.

In June/July, there was the issue with the winding-up petition from HMRC. How did that get so far?

It appears the debt that was due towards the end of May was settled on Friday, June 2. We were not aware that, as it appears, HMRC started recovery action on June 1.

We became aware that they were taking action on the morning of Friday, June 2. We alerted them to the fact that we'd paid. And they checked their bank, acknowledged they'd been paid, and told us that would be the end of it.

That's why I said we were surprised to then appear on the court list.

So, from June 2 until the time it appeared on the court list in July, was there no communication to say this was going to happen?

Absolutely not. It was not advertised; normally when these things happen there's a public advertisement. And then, you get a notice of a hearing. We had nothing to say this thing was still happening.

Why was it, though, left to such a late stage to pay the bill in the first place?

We were awaiting cash to pay it, and draw-down of funds.

So the club couldn't afford to pay the bill before then?

The club was awaiting funds to pay it, and that was part of the plan to pay it. That had been established some time before.

So was there a delay in getting hold of funds?

You're collecting cash all the time, that's the reason.

Was there a shortfall, then?

Not generally, just for that particular payment at that particular time.

When supporters see that sort of thing, regardless of the explanations, it doesn't necessarily reassure them - could it not have been better avoided?

The club certainly doesn't want to get into a position where it can't make the payment on the due date. And we took the steps we did to make sure we could get the payment on the right day.

As it happened, on that occasion it didn't happen and therefore we paid it as soon as possible afterwards. But I understand that it can cause anxiety and uncertainty for supporters.

Are there any other circumstances pending where the club may be unable to satisfy bills or invoices until very late in the day?

Cash is always tight. On occasions it becomes difficult. We've got to work through it. As we sit here now we're up to date with PAYE and VAT, and we've met the payments on all the dates since, on time. So as far as that's concerned, and with trade creditors, we are comfortable with where we are.

We also had some County Court Judgements recently - is there a risk of any more of those, if the club is taking a long time to pay certain people?

Not as we sit here now, not that I'm aware of.

POTENTIAL OVERSEAS INVESTOR

Do the club still intend to name him and can you give any idea of when that will be?

I look at it in this way - my own personal opinion is that's all water long since under the bridge and I have little interest in it. I'm not sure if that's at the top of many people's agenda.

I don't imagine it is, but the club did promise to name the person in the end - does the club still intend to honour that?

To be honest, we haven't discussed it, so when it gets to the time that we can, we'll have a discussion.

Can you say when that time will be?

I can't say that because of the NDA [non-disclosure agreement] that was signed at the time.

KEITH CURLE

Earlier in the summer you referred to "preliminary discussions" regarding Keith Curle's contract situation. Has that moved on since then?

No, we've had no further discussions at all.

Can you say when you intend to address that further?

We've had no discussion, there are none planned, and we're all focusing on the season.

When would it become an issue to discuss?

I'm sure we'll sit down with Keith in due course, later in the year, and see where we are. As we sit here now there's no scheduled time and it's not something we're discussing.

But before the end of 2017?

Yes, I'd anticipate we'd have more discussions before the end of the calendar year, absolutely.

So you don't feel the need to bring Keith's long-term future to a head before then?

The position of the club hasn't changed since the discussion that we had [earlier].

Is it an issue Keith has been keen to discuss?

No, we've had no discussions.

Is he happy working under those circumstances?

He hasn't said anything to the contrary.

FANS FORUM

Is there a reason why it's taken so long to arrange?

There have just been practicalities of scheduling. We had a date, we were all set up to announce it, and then something unforeseen happened at the BBC end and we couldn't do it.

It's just operationally setting it up. We would have had it by now, but BBC weren't able to do it on the date we thought.

*Note - the forum has now been arranged as a Q&A session this Friday, September 22, in the BBC Radio Cumbria studio.

THE BIRD MESS PROBLEM

How far are the club on in resolving this?

It's a constant battle and we're looking at every option to try and make it better. It gets cleaned and literally in the time the cleaners have gone, and we go to inspect it, we get it coming back. It is as quick as that. We're doing all we can to sort it out. For some reason the birds like to shelter under our roofs and for some reason there's a lot of them in this city.

How effective was the hawk?

Our understanding is that the birds are creatures of habit, and if they see the hawk, they see it regularly enough, they think it's there all the time and they find other places to go. It's going to take a while to sort it out.

The hawk is making visits all the time. A fan called me and suggested to use laser pens - that’s worked for him in his business, and we've had another supporter suggesting we use kites in the shape of hawks.

We're looking at everything. I think this is a problem for lots of places, not only us.

Is there a permanent solution?

Every time I see a picture of another club's stadium, I've started looking at the stanchions in the roof, to see if they've got perch points. All of them seem to have perch points, but they don't seem to have as many birds as we do. I'm told Blackpool have a similar problem.

Is there a long-term solution? I think it's going to be removing as many roosts as possible and having lots of deterrents. And when it comes to nesting time, not allowing them into the stadium to roost.

For your environment where the public are coming into regularly, this is a real problem, isn't it?

Absolutely no doubt about that. If someone could come up with the answer, they would have done, and so it is a defensive battle. All we can do is try and keep clean and keep getting rid of them.

CATERING

At the Swindon game there was a lot of criticism about things not being very slick, with long queues and a lack of certain items for sale. Recent games may have seen improvement but there are still complaints, such as one person serving in certain bars…what do you say about that?

The Swindon game didn't go well.

How can it be as poor as that, when you've got a new company in? Making a good first impression is surely important.

How can it happen? In the circumstances of that particular game, certain areas weren't stocked correctly, certain areas weren't staffed to the requisite amount, and from those two relatively simple points of view, you create queues, and things can decline. They were the reasons.

Why would that be the case?

I think, from a catering point of view, they [ABM] are new to the stadium, and each stadium has its own unique buying fan patterns as to when they arrive, what they buy etc. They were getting used to that.

Could they not have had some preparation for what those patterns had been already?

You can have that, but the nature of a transfer is that sometimes the people leaving...what interest have they got in passing over that to the next person? So there is a learning curve at the start.

What we've done already is increased the capacity to serve by opening new service points in a number of areas that have increased the capacity that get people through.

That's happened in the Paddock South, McVitie's Bar, Warwick Road End, for instance. And for the last game we installed extra service points in the Pioneer Stand bar, which has trebled the capacity to serve in that bar.

It's small steps and we'll continue to try and improve. We're doing lots of things with the supporters and CUSG to try and get detailed feedback on specific issues that occur on a matchday. The detail does count here on what's working and what isn't, and we're trying to change things as we go along.

How can the club hope tempt more people away from other bars and facilities in the nearby area, in light of these teething problems and certain things still not being slick?

For certain supporters, price is always going to count, and there's no way that, being open on average 23 times a season, we're going to be able to secure and deliver the same price of a pint that a large venue city-centre pub that's part of a chain is going to be able to do.

What we can try and do is invest in the facilities like the Sunset bar, to create a good atmosphere, and provide good value for money and service that works for the fans. That's what we're focused on and part of that has been getting a new caterer in. It might take a bit of time but that's why they've come in.

OTHER STADIUM ISSUES

Is anything else on the horizon regarding facilities?

We've got some further work to do in the Sunset bar, and then we'll be looking at other bars along the west side to try and improve those - the Sporting Inn etc. It's going to be a recurring theme of trying to update and refresh these bars.

Are disabled facilities on the agenda?

We've been working with the fans, and a disabled supporters group has been formed - part of that was that we looked at improving their facilities.

We extended the supporters' area in the Pioneer Stand to create more capacity, because that was needed. The next thing on the horizon is they wanted to have sheltered accommodation in the north end of the Paddock and we've agreed that that can happen.

There's a contractor supporting us with that and they are working on the plan to make that happen. That will be another step forward in that area. It's doing what we can, where we can. There's lots of initiatives going on to try and make things better and that's just another one. We're just waiting for the contractor to come and do it. It's approved by the club, so there's no barrier to that happening.